Well, if I may, I'd like to suggest that where you are mistaken is in your apparent belief that we are fighting some specific opponent who can be defeated militarily and we will, at some point, be able to declare victory.

It seems to me that we are not fighting a specific opponent at all, unless you're willing to accept that the opponents are the people of Iraq. It's certainly not Saddam's army, is it? And it's certainly not Bin Laden's army, is it?

As the sad story in the news today about the little girl walking around with a bomb vest proves, we are not fighting an opposing Army. What do you think the reaction would be if an American soldier had realized that little girl was wearing a bomb vest and put a bullet through her head?

We are simply trying to prolong an occupation of a country because our president wants to go down in history as the man who proved you can use the military to force democracy on a nation whose people don't want it.

We are putting our own soldiers on trial for killing people in this so-called war. I'm sure the soldiers thought those people were a threat at that critical moment, but in fact, we're not fighting the kind of war that allows our troops to kill their troops. Thats primarily because nobody knows who "their troops" are. They're just citizens, many of whom do not want American soldiers occupying their country, and will kill Americans every chance they get. American troops, on the other hand, have to be very careful about where they point their weapons because God forbid they should hurt one of those "innocent" civilians. How could we ever "win" that sort of fight.

I usually gets no response when I ask for a definition of victory in this situation, but when I do, its something to do with Iraq having a democratic government that is no threat to the stability of the region. That region hasn't been stable for thousands of years and unfortunately for the Bush/Cheney regime, its not going to be stable in the foreseeable future. Its not America. Never has been and never will be. Bush could keep sending our children to die at their hands until we have no children left to sacrifice and Iraq will still not be America, won't have an American style democratic government and won't love America.

You said - "...supporting our troops means NOT using them unless we plan on making their sacrifices WORTH SOMETHING." Their sacrifices in this internal/class/religious/eternal battle can never be "worth" anything.

The great majority of US citizens have realized that it was a huge mistake to start sending our children to die in that quagmire because it will probably continue, at one level or another, for eternity.

So thats how I would debate the issue of whether victory in Iraq is possible and whether my son or daughter, yours or anybodys, should die there.

work. I used to be on these forums, quite a bit, to argue against their treatment of the troops, rarely from a pro-war or anti-war view but with more of a "don't belittle or berate" our troops standpoint. I hated it when they used names such as pawns and fools in regards to the men and women of our military. I didn't mind GJ so much, but GM actually told me once that Parris Island would be a "piece of cake" compared to all of the school she had to attend. What can you say to someone who has that blind opinion but has never had that experience?

Anyway, keep up the good fight hard-charger, I think you're pushing the FEBA forward. You really are a shining example of those that are serving, and have served, our country. Once again, thanks.

"Courage is endurance for one moment more..."
Unknown Marine Second Lieutenant in Vietnam