I saw the show Frontline (PBS) last night. It was about recent US/Iran relations . Some interesting stuff!

If you thought you had a solid opinion on the Iraq war, watch that edition (pbs.org) and see if it changes your mind to some degree.

I think we have already achieved victory in Iraq. Saddam is out of power, lots of his bad guys are dead or in captivity. They have had elections. Women there can now vote!

Reflect back to WWII. Victory was Hitler being dead. Was Europe a utopia right after that? Of course not. It took millions of US dollars and it took time for things to settle. Why are we so impatient?

Japan was defeated with a big bomb. And the US took MAJOR efforts to bring Japan back and now look, 60 YEARS later we all love Japan (& Germany) and it is valuable to us. Perhaps in 60 years from now Iraq, will be a major trading partner, and will have civility and democracy.

The civil rights was a battle, right? People died for that cause. Did everything stop with 1964 legislation? No.... there are still people dying fighting for equal rights.

That's why we are there... there is HOPE it will be better. AND we are Americans. That's what we do. We help those who need help, we help the oppressed and we protect our national interests whenever possible.

Saddam violated the UN resolutions and he was a bad dude who wished harm upon the US (not to mention the harm he did on his own people). When a criminal ignores his probation do you look the other way, or do you send in the police? Yes, it's oil too. Everyone bitches about $3 gas. It's in our interest to have stability in that area for the cost of oil AND the effect oil has on our economy and the world.

Imagine if we hd left Iraq in 2003 and every trooper came back to the US. Then civil unrest started... if they were to have what they have now, and NO US troops were there, would we not go help the Iraqy people. Of course we would! We have a national interest in that region. And we have a little bit of interest helping other human beings.

Our tax dollars are drops in the bucket if this vision works out. Did your grandfather ask how much fighting the Japs would cost? Hitler? Fighting Hunger? Poverty? Does anyone say we are spending too much fighting crime? "you know I'm all for preventing drugs on our streets until a cops get killed." Oooh, geez, it's not worth it if someone has to die...

We ARE our greatest asset. What about those dying as cops? Teachers in a violent schools? Soldiers are warriors and that's what they do and they are willing to serve their country, because no one else has to come save us.

If someone is not willing to fight for their freedom and the freedom of others, they do not deserve freedom.

Yes, we have worn out our welcome. Certainly the planning and the execution of the full plan was done poorly. Just like in football, a good team can go with a good play but poor execution will lose the game. Does that mean you quit after the 1st quarter and give up?

Additionally that Nova show indicated how Iraq was planned as a stepping stone for Iran. If one accepts that, it's easy to see why the US command was not in a hurry to leave Iraq to their own destiny.

If I understand you correctly, we are currently in Iraq for two main reasons:
1) Damage control (damage we've been a big part of, mind you)
2) Better trade in the future

So when this war is written into the history books and a child asks, "For what cause did my father (or mother) die at such a young age?," their fastidious teacher will respond "because if had left, that country would have been in the same situation as it was when we got there. Additionally, look at how great of a trade partner they are! We've been outsourcing our jobs to them instead of India for years now!"

Monetary gain and global economy both seek to break down our sovereignty. We the people stand to gain little or nothing. Bush's cohorts in the banking business stand to gain much. They've got a national bank established backed by American dollars there. Rebuilding takes a lot of money and they now have a privately owned national bank (just like we do here) to loan them that cash.

This propaganda has been working, and we've been made a passive people. I can't fathom how the loss of ONE American life justifies any trade relation or monetary gain. How do you put a price on a life? Tell me that you HONESTLY believe that when and if we ever withdraw troops from that area that it will thrive.

This is a stepping stone to the break down of our sovereignty and the rise in power of the New World Order.

...Vbron...

In Reply.

No, not exactly.
-The place is a mess and needs our help. Is that "damage control"??? No.
-Iraq is a major key to the Middle East. The Middle East affects our economy. And our GIANT economy is in our national interest. YOUR job, your lifestyle, your commute from Canyon County to Ada county is all dependent on barrels of oil.

Damage control???
Why are we in Korea? 50 some years later we have men and women serving in Korea. The list goes on and on. Why are we there? Or there? Or why are we NOT there? I don't see Idaho Peace Coalition wackos protesting to bring our troops home from Korea. Our troops are througout the world protecting our interests and sometimes that means fixing problems we created. The whole ISRAEL/Middle East in many ways is our doing... Does Lebonon and the US Marine barracks bring any thoughts?

Why have we spent billions of dollars in Korea? You all do realize NKorea STILL wants to take back SKorea, right? If there wasn't a DMZ today, your cell phone would be made somewhere other than Korea. Wanna help Micron? Advodate a pull-out of Korea and Micron will be making lot of profits and hiring all those whiners back.

I don't recall anyone asking Clinton why American soldiers DIED in SOMALIA. They were on peace keeping efforts, right? Well that's pretty much what we're doing in Iraq or trying to do. Our mindset is, a few are okay, but a bunch is not. It was nothing to do with the principle of the matter.

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It's not simply "better trade".
It's not "trade relations" or "monetary gain". It's recession, depression, economic collapse, family budgets, interest rates (homes), etc. Let's go into our imaginary minds and picture a future Iran launching a warhead onto Israel (you can pick the city, Jerusalem, Haifa, Bethleham, whichever). What will that mean to YOU?

What would our (world) economy be like if the Persian gulf shut down tomorrow?

Our economy is subsidized by the military protection of the shipping lanes in the Gulf. People die in that effort too... for example, the USS Cole (Oct.2000), 17 dead sailors and the rest of their shipmates were there protecting YOUR cheap gas prices so you don't complain too much about your freedom to pump and drive; and so you can heat your home inexpensively; and to keep the costs of production down.

What would happen if China took Taiwan back? Our military (w/ help of Japan) has prevented that from happening. Do you think that doesn't cost any money? You can call that "better trade" if you want, but I think it's something much bigger.

The majority of Americans are all about the 'flavor of the day'. I'm sure there is nothing happening in Iraq that is not a repeat of history. We are simply short-sighted and only think about today. To one degree or another, less or more, it's just a repeat of what we've been doing for a LONG time all throughout world. ANd what we will continue to do in the future. Why? Well I think its mostly about YOUR pocket book or someones' religion. RE: the debates, I heard about H. Clinton voting in Congress to give the Pres. the authority to take military action against Iran if necessary. WHAT? Despite what we learn from the pst, we continue to make the same mistakes.

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How do you put a price on life?
Well, how do you put a price on freedom? Instead of a price, how about which one is MORE valuable??? I'll vote freedom is more valuable than 'life'. "Give me liberty, or give me death".

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Why did my father die at such a young age (in that war)?
Perhaps you could respond for us all with the long list of places and times throughout history where that question is applicable?

You've made some really good points.

The reason I supported the Iraq war in the beginning - despite the fact that we went in there on faulty (or fabricated) evidence - was that we were "paving the way for freedom."

You ask - what is the price of freedom? I agree that TRUE freedom is worth any price. But that freedom must be purchased by the people who are going to receive it. Our county was made great because people offered PERSONAL sacrifices to make it that way. We are still in countries like Korea because WE offered a sacrifice to make it that way. We continue to do so. We are playing big brother to countries that should have made the effort and sacrifice themselves. They are like teenagers who have been given an expensive car for their 16th birthday. They LOVE the gift, but do not fully understand or appreciate it. Until they win the victory for themselves and by themselves, they will never fully appreciate it. That is why I submit to you that this war has not and cannot be won. "Give me liberty, or give me death" applied to us then. "Give them liberty, and give me death" applies to us now.

I can't justify American lives simply to promote our way of living. It seems to me like we're just out to tell others how to run their countries, how to live. I can't justify American lives simply to preserve our current way of life (i.e. dependance on foreign oil). I can't justify American lives to purchase the freedom of people who have largely not accepted the gift.

...Vbron...

And I was against the invasion when it started. But now I believe it was the right thing to do and WMD has nothing to do with it. Granted still bad execution and bad management of the aftermath = Rumsfeld and Cheney (Bush is too dumb to be responsible for anything).

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"They LOVE the gift, but do not fully understand or appreciate it."

Yes, and that can also be applied to the MILLIONS of American who do nothing to protect their own freedoms or excercise it. No voting, no military service, no community service, no JobCorp, no community service, no church service.... etc. Lots of us love the gifts but are not willing to fight for them.

So does that mean the whole military should boycott because there are soo many people who are not willing to help them? I'm not talking about yellow ribbons and saying "We Support our troops"-- I'm talking about picking up a rifle and relieving a soldier on watch; sharing the risk he is taking; sharing the effort so he is not deployed for so long.

I love my gifts and I am willing to SHARE them and fight for others who want the same.

Please, dear Mr. Jesus, who would YOU bomb? Hom many innocent Iraqi men, women and children do YOU think is a fair price for protecting the petroleum interests of America? How many insurgents would YOU waterboard to get "intelligence"? How many people would YOU toss into Guantanamo and deny the right to legal redress?

Oh, and one more thing, Mr. Jesus. When George Bush tells us that God told him to be President, and to start a war with another country, was he talking about Your Dad, or one of those other gods?

Editorial by Arthur Kilton 12-3-07 Elected democrats are undermining America. If people like Arthur are all about the war in Iraq why isn't he in Iraq doing something about it rather than here, bad mouthing people who knew Iraq was never a threat to US? Saddam was a lot like BSali, full of BS. The Gulf War proved Saddam's military was a joke & W's daddy didn't finish the job because he knew more than junior. The old man avoided the mess junior got US into for a reason, so far it's only a $600 billion reason but it'll cost trillions before W's accomplished total failure.

Next time we elect a President, don't send a boy. Junior was born with a silver spoon, never had to work a day in his life, finish the military, school, or hold a job. How could he represent the working class, average taxpayers, like the ones fighting for their country while the Arthurs support the lies?

The army needs a few good men Arthur, have at it. I've heard people say our government has worked for two hundred years. If that is the case why are We the People in debt to the tune sof $9 trillion, $30K each? Congress is coming back to work, I imagine they'll have it straightened out by the end of the week. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, FEMA, USDA, FDA, Postal Service, Homeland Security, & all those little things they forget about while on vacation after getting nothing done for months, no worries. Was it 103 days they worked in 2006?

Would any of the corporations buying our representation continue on this path if their CEO or Board of directors had those corporations in that kind of hole? If they show a loss, {on purpose} they get tax cuts. What do we get? Pay the taxes they evade. Seems odd the Idaho Tax Commission & IRS nickle & dime individuals while campaign contributors evade billions through our representation/lawbreakers. I don't know why the people would think it's ok for Craig to use campaign contributions for his legal fees & not think the same $ corporations give away in return for tax cuts wouldn't do just as much good for education. I guess your property taxes aren't high enough, YET!

Democats, republicans, they're all small change in corporate unAmerica's pocket at taxpayer expense! Tax campaign contributions, cut their pay, end politicians paid health care & retirement. Can't get Americans to do jobs at $7 an hour, jobs that paid a living wage in the seventies, $12 an hour, so they broke unions & brought in illegal immigrants as a favor to campaign contibutors. Illegal immigration never hurt America did it? Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a meth freak. Didn't screw up the cost of health care either I suppose.

According to the 14% approval rating Congress & 25% Bush is getting, seems like we can't get anybody to do the jobs we pay them for so maybe it's time to be the boss, shareholders in the largest corporation in the world, America.

If the Arthurs of this country were in touch with reality, well I guess they'll never hear that popping sound, the sound of their head coming out.

That would be a start, too bad all the Arthurs with their head in their butt in the air like a target, can't see what's going on. www.nextrevolution.net

They are not doing their jobs. This year our taxes are going to be late because they keep running their mouths off about issues that are garbage. Oh yea I can not forget if they get their way all our taxes are going up $2000.00 next year. Alot of people rely on their returns and they might owe next year thanks to our great congress and DEMS. Get a clue please.

you could slice it with a dull axe.
I just love it when people complain about the Dems and taxes.

Surely they prefer that the borrow and spend Reps just keep on a borrowin' and a spendin' while the richest Americans have their taxes cut.

Guess what? China now owns us. The day they call in their markers is the day our country's financial infrastrucure collapses. How do you like knowing our way of life depends on the whims of a communist nation?

I'm in a peculiar position in my view of the war; I'm not really sure what we should do to be completely honest. I think the war has it's right and wrong itnentions, right being the export of democracy and wrong being the prospect of the US simply trying to gain control of Iraqi oil Fields. I think Bush has handled this was to the best of HIS ability. By that I mean what he has control of, he has done well. You can't tell me he is the only one with power on how this war goes; Several parties are involved, like the UN, Haliburton and Blackwater. He gets alot of crap simply because he is president, and the fact that nobody likes war, no matter how badly it is or isnt needed.

So, is victory possible? At some point, no time in the near future though. There will always be insurgents, always soldiers willing to fight them. I don't think we should stay the current course, but I don't think a complete pullout is smart either. We are in a position in which either way we lose something, and we will lose less if we keep trrops here to stabalize the region then we will just completely pulling out; 1st off the media fallout will be tremendous. 2nd, our country may not be able to unite for a war like this again in the future, which could be a problem if a war is truly needed.

I think the war's image has been completely distorted by the media. What more, we, the populous, aren't informed of the more indepth details. Maybe there really is a good purpose. Or maybe we are just doing this for the oil benefit. Either way, we wont have an answer in the near future, and I predict we may never have one at all.

So am I Pro-war? Yes. Am I for Staying the course? No. As much as it pains me to see our boys out there fighting everyday, I think its imperative that we dont pullout, even a phased pullout like several democrats have suggested, mostly due to the fallout that will occur after it is all over.

How old were you when Nixon went to China ? Type Nixon China in your search engine and learn something .
Bush bought your vote for around a $300 tax cut --------- I hope you got your moneys worth .
Well the bill is about to come due , and you still think there is a free lunch -- THERE ISN'T !
Stop blaming all your money problems on the Democrats -- they didn't run up the bill -- you did .

Reddog

I never denied a tax cut

I asked how he bought my vote with it- it was enacted 2 years after he gained office

As I recall he ran on it in his first election ---------- Want a tax cut ? Vote for me .

It is still going on in the Pube party -- simple bribery and nothing about paying the massive bills .

Reddog