- IdahoStatesman.com
- Blogs
- Idaho Newsreader
- Commentary: Kevin Richert
- Your Local Government
- Letters from the West
- Into the Outdoors
- Words & Deeds
- The Cinemaniac
- The Beer Nut: Patrick Orr
- What's Online
- Bronco Beat
- Murph's Turf
- Nonprofits
- TechIdaho
- Idaho Politics: LiCalzi
- Idaho Legislature: Labrador
- Idaho Legislature: Langhorst
- Forums
- Recent Posts
- Content
Some thoughtful remarks about a coarse discourse
Submitted by Kevin Richert on Tue, 04/29/2008 - 9:46am.
As any knucklehead, nitwit, ultraconservative fascist or ultraliberal brownshirt can tell you, life gets a little bit ugly out on the comment queue.
Why, I've been called things that would make my mother blush. Assuming Mom didn't write 'em. In the anonymous world of online comments, you can't ever be sure.
Over at the Idaho Business Review, Steve Ahrens wrote an outstanding piece on blogging and online etiquette. Click here to check it out.
The short take: play fair, tell the truth, use your name.
Ahrens knows a thing or two about journalism — and about influencing the public debate. In his earlier professional life, he was a quality old-school journalist, working as political editor at the Statesman. He later found success in the corporate world, ultimately retiring as the highly respected lobbyist for the Idaho Association of Commerce and Industry. So I'll put some stock in what Ahrens has to say about the changing tenor of the dialogue.
Writes Ahrens: "The best protection for free speech is the responsible exercise of that right. I’ll defend your right to speak your piece as long as it’s not libelous or slanderous, and you make a reasonable effort to be factual and accurate – and if you have the guts to sign your name to your comments. ... Requiring bloggers to work under their own names would both improve online conduct and greatly enhance the credibility and acceptance of the often valuable information they’re providing."
Ahrens might not have known it, but he hit on a raw nerve in our internal discussions. Some of my newsroom colleagues openly dislike our online comments — and the anonymous rhetorical food fight that seems to follow every sensitive or controversial story. And a couple have questioned why I quote anonymous bloggers and commenters on our Opinion pages, in our daily "Other Voices" feature.
It's a very important discussion for us to have, as we try to fuse our traditional paper product with a burgeoning online product. By quoting unnamed bloggers and commenters, am I enabling this coarse discourse? Am I compromising the kind of open, upfront public discussion that newspapers have accommodated for decades? Or is it basically game over — people have come to expect anonymity online, and newspapers can't fight it?
If I had the answers, I would be an anomaly in our industry. I will admit I put more stock in bloggers and commenters who identify themselves — which is why, when I post comments on my blog or others, I always identify myself.
The optimist in me hopes this will be a self-regulating dialogue. People will learn to tune out the trolls who add nothing but vitriol to the discussion. People will come to value bloggers and commenters who have useful comments, and the willingness to attach their names to what they say. That's my hope, but I have no basis on which to make it a prediction.
Delicious
Digg
Yahoo»
- Kevin Richert's blog
- Login or register to post comments
Tune out the trolls
Thanks KR and Steve. It is indeed hard to stand up for someone's right to say something when they either don't care enough or don't have the courage to use their names.
Anonymity has its place in protecting those who are vulnerable, but is seldom needed in the coffee shop discussion and street corner speeches that this blogging vehicle represents.
Say your piece, explain your idea, criticise the ideas of others (but not them) and stand by your comments. But most especially revel in the freedom to do so.
Michael Tomlin
well, YEAH...freedom but not FREEDOM.
You can obviously raise more ire with a real name.
After eight years on Usenet, I've heard it all and none of it is an answer to anything. If you want to keep howling about it like religion then blogging IS dead, indeed.
I think anything that allows freedpm of expression is doomed to die slowly, for whatever reason. It's been building up since the 1980s. Don't let it stop you, however.
Freedom of Anonymity
Did I spell that write?
In a day of Google and background checks, do you really want your name and your comments on the Internet? Of course that can be good or bad and even good and bad at the same time- all depends on one's perspective and situation.
There is also spoofing. If I were to use Steve Ahrens name on a different blog and posted negative comments, it would be quite some time, if ever, before he could do damage control. Teenagers in Myspace are experiencing this personality sabotage problem.
Further, no one knows who is reading these posts. In a controlled environment and known audience one can say & write accordingly. In an unknown audience the prudent is more cautious and that caution limits honest and unfiltered opinions (obviously a filter is good sometimes).
So I dont' believe it takes 'guts' to sign one's name to a post. Sometimes, it takes smarts not to do so.
Uda Pimp & Ida Ho
It's not ironic that he limits posting to Kevin and Jasper's...
blogs though.
PS it's really funny that Steve Ahrens is defending an errant...
troll from his own site. Run to Momma, more or less.
What DO you guys want, anyway?
If you don't like it shut the site down and stop pretending. After two times from what I gather you just aren't going to get any tea parties. You asked for discourse and you got it. The posters here aren't much different than on any other newspaper blog site like this one.
Even more than that, what are supposed HIGH SCHOOL and MIDDLE SCHOOL KIDS doing blogging during school hours?
There is a lot of SET-UP going down, and none of us are DUMB...we saw a BUNCH of nonsense blow over the Valley and CALLED IT.
If you want a smoothly running, happy place...
Blog for 4 year olds, please.
Calling bull for bull and listing eartags.
One problem...
I do get confused with postings. I'm not sure who "limits posting to Kevin and Jasper?" I am uncertain what might be implied that is wrong with that, and I don't see that such a posting meets the established guideline of being "on topic."
I am also uncertain who Steve Ahrens is defending, and I am unaware that Steve has a site. Sometimes a bit more clarity and an attempt to tie a posting to the focus of the title and debate topic can be useful.
This is a great vehicle for public discourse but it is too often marred by those who write as drive-by shooters hiding behind the tinted windows of their video game names.
Shall I index your articles to Mr. Ahren's publication?
Or have you simply crossed into the void with our friend Larry Craig?
Sir, sarcasm when crossed with dishonesty behooves you and sullies your journalistic reputation.
Now quit baiting me and do something useful.
As you would like it...
1 2 [Next]
Headline Issue Date
Tax Time: 'Render unto Caesar…'
April 15th beckons and the piper awaits his due. Tax time. Though it seems as if we have been paying taxes throughout the year, for which there is ...
04/14/08
U of I Law School in Boise Makes Sense
Talk of a law school in Boise is not news. In the early 1990’s rumors of a Utah or Washington school branching here were common. The ...
04/09/08
The Olympics: Business and politics
In a perfect world the Olympic Games would be just that – games, sport of the best and at the highest level. They would be devoid of politics ...
04/07/08
2008 Legislature, said and done
It seems he was preparing for a press conference when an aide whispering in his ear said “Mr. President, you need to know that three Brazilian ...
04/03/08
The deferred maintenance “scam”
One of the most difficult challenges facing any legislative body is finding the right and rightful taxing revenue stream to pay for roads, ...
03/31/08
If the legislature were a business…
It’s too bad we cannot put a “stock value” on the Idaho Legislature, and watch it rise or fall daily based upon their finessing of ...
03/26/08
Make all tax increases subject to a two-thirds vote approval
School districts have long railed against being held to a two-thirds super-majority vote when they needed to build or remodel schools. They had a ...
03/24/08
Debating Politics in Idaho: What do the People Want?
“Who am I? Why am I here?” With those now immortal words Ross Perot’s presidential running mate Vice Admiral James Stockdale ...
03/19/08
Limit Taxes to Point of Sale
The old saw about what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object seems like child’s play when cast beside the issue of fair ...
03/14/08
Food prices are following oil
The headline of a New York Times article asked “How long will the cost of food continue to rise?” The subheading simply said ...
03/11/08
That was page one of the search. I won't bother with the other.
Thank you for writing.
Untrue and inaccurate
"Foreignoregonian" has listed the BizBlog columns I have written for the Idaho Business Review. He must be referring to that publication as Mr. Ahren's, as KR referenced a column in it written by Ahrens.
The IBR's website lists 18 employees and neither I nor Ahrens are listed. Of course not. It is not our publication. I have met Steve Ahrens once, and do not know him at all other than by reputation from IACI.
Unlike KR, for whom the Statesman could rightly be called "his" publication, not of ownership but certainly of employee relationship - I am a freelance writer in private practice and would myself be disingenuous to call the IBR or any other outlets publishing my work as "my publication."
I believe Mr. Ahrens, now retired from his previous work (not at the IBR) simply writes a column for them, and has no "employee" or other relationship with the paper.
Foreignoregonian's posting on this topic demonstrates the very problems Ahrens and KR opened the discussion with. His comments are pointed at specific people, he insults and acuses of "dishonesty," yet his information is patently untrue, verifiably untrue, and inaccurate in any sense.
This freedom of expression and speech that was won for us by our Founders was earned at the expense of their names, fortunes, and sometimes lives. It is too important and in fact disrespectful to those who have gone before us to play silly games and hide behide walls of secrecy while throwing insults and untruths at others.
It is not too much to ask that we have our lively and open debate, yet respond to the ideas of people and not about them personally. And it is not too much to ask that we care enough about our freedoms to put our name to the practice of them.
Michael Tomlin
I don't particularly care,
I have the right not to think much of your rebuttal style as well. You are shifty. I don't have to support your views anymore than you do mine. The introduction of "etiquette" etc is subversionary and sounds about as bad as some of the political figures many of us revile. It amounts to making it up as you go.
If somebody has to ask for help from a person whom you claim has no real stature at IBR and that you claim not to be a large part or despite having had at least 10 articles published within the last month and a half, it sounds like the excuses of a child not wanting to be punished.
I don't see teasing in it and I call what I see. If you cannot stand the heat, don't work in journalism. That having been said if you want to be like President Bush on damage control remember that he's probably the second Alzheimers' afflicted president or he has a serious cognitive disorder forming and it's really tragic. I wouldn't emulate that.
If I were to call the number listed would I reach Steve Ahrens? I think there are two organizations liking the taste of shoe leather and still trying to get to the heel.
I don't think that is helpful.
What's in a name?
I use my real name on this blog (and a few others), though only my first name.
So?
Most likely, everyone who knows me will know which Gordon this is. And those who don't, wouldn't know even if I used my last name, too, added the middle initial or name and my nicknames, eye color and shoe size. So what?
To me, the purpose of blogs, and the reason I read them, is to exchange ideas. I like to see what others think about a particular subject, and I don't really care *who* thinks which thing; as long as it's on the subject, it gives me some insight into various opinions on whatever.
Of course, when a few can't think of anything to say on a topic and so settle for name-calling or somesuch, it doesn't add anything, but I suppose doesn't do any real harm, either (a la the old "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me).
So, any of you wanna call me names for writing this, feel free, I won't mind. And I don't even mind if you're too frightened to use your real name. OK?
I have a name for you, Right!
You're right, Some people know you & in an area so populated as the valley, most don't.
A lot of people don't give it a second thought when they register for an account. It's a password, identity theft, keep it to yourself world just like so many other sites a guy gets on, security? I'm not from Idaho, 99.9 percent of people who read anything I post wouldn't know me if they were looking at me. People from outside the valley have ideas that differ from life long residents, it's the same all over. Ideas!
Much of the name calling comes about for all kinds of reasons & many of the names aren't directed at a person, maybe a party, leader of a party, or misunderstanding. If a person takes offense because they're of a party being called, they accept the name & insult. Sticks & stones, some people don't know how to handle it. I like the confrontation, grew up with four brothers, developed a stay & fight attitude. Everybody knows how to insult in their own way, indirectly & not realizing the fact, they may have insulted someone. People, it's just people.
I'm not a nice person, I abuse people when they say or write things I feel directed at me, abusive, or directing the view of others in a negative way. I usually come down hard on people & they get a little hot. Sorry but I'm good at getting under the skin. If they knew me they'd realize I'm just a rabble rouser having a good time & joke about just about everything. Some people don't have room for comedy in their lives.
I write editorials with my name on them, get on other blogs, some include my name, others don't. It was just the moment, the situation when I signed on. Greyghost is part of my email address which I've had for years, 15 I'd bet. I raise Weimaraners, have for years, they're called Greyghost. In some ways it's my name, people I've sold dogs to 12 years ago, last year, contact me, send pcis., remember me by the email address, not my name. It's on computers, files, contact info., it's an internet world. I've been called worse, knew when to laugh it off, or came out swinging.
The last good fight I had with my older brother Alvin, years ago, I gave him two black eyes, we get along great. He's done the same to me, had me bleeding more than once. Older brother Mike, same thing. We respect each other because we know the other won't back down & it's a fight you might not want to get into.
Should we include address & phone numbers on these blogs? I don't think that would be a good idea. When I sign off it's over but others, maybe not. I don't think frightened has much to do with it. Why is everybody so sensitive? The world is changing, women are more into the fight than men these days. People shoot & stab rather than fist fight these days, it's all jacked up. We always had guns in the car when I was growing up, never thought about shooting anybody.
Apparently this paper does not know what's in a name...
Or they'd change Kevin's link ad on the home page so it no longer reads ID Quicktakes anymore. It has been a while.
Names
Hey, Greyghost, I like your name. And I like your attitude, although I don't much like physical fights; they make my fists and nose hurt.
I think verbal fights -- whether oral or written -- are much more fun.
As for insults -- one of my favorite coworkers was my subordinate for a while and then became my boss ... and the swapping of insults, both vocally and in e-mails, never stopped. We had a great time, and still keep in touch now and then via e-mail since I retired.
She was a bleached blonde, and when she'd do something dumb, I'd say something like "Wow, that was so dumb I could almost believe you're a real blonde! I heard rumor that one of the higher-level bosses overheard one of my cracks to her one time, called her in and asked her what she was going to do about it. Rumor is she said something like, oh, don't worry about it; he's just a dumb Swede. I got a chuckle out of that. Should I (or she) have been insulted? What for? it's much more fun to just keep it going.
As for the physical fights, though, aside from the fact that I don't enjoy them, I'm getting kinda old for the hands-and-feet battles; guess I'll have to stick to a Colt .45 and a 12-gauge -- they make all ages equal.
Remember the Elvis song that said, "I never look for trouble, but I never ran ..." That's kind of my philosophy re physical confrontations (I like running even less than I like punching and getting punched). But verbal fights? Sure, bring 'em on. I especially enjoy (in a face-to-face; it doesn't work in e-mails and blogs) pushing the other guy (especially a boss) until he's about to punch me or fire me or whatever, and then get him arguing in circles until he forgets which direction he was trying to go.
People who can't take it just ain't no fun.
\
Didn't mean to send the wrong message.
I haven't been in a fist fight for years, those mentioned were going on 30 years ago. I don't want to get into it with anyone & hope that wasn't the impression given. I'm no one to go about starting fights & I avoid them every chance I get. The personality didn't go away just because I got old. That's the thing about people, we develope into who we are at a young age & away we go.
All this back & forth stuff is just the blog, everybody needs to get over it. So what if we go at each other at times, we get past it & it's good to leave it be. I went around & around with Foreignoregonian for a while, it's forgotten. In hind sight it was probably my fault, I may have misunderstood something he replied too or posted. Being stubburn as I am, came out bashing & went a little over.
This is just a blog, let everybody get in their shots & move on. As far as names, who cares. How would I know if somebody posted as Bill James & their name wasn't really Bill James? What if someone posted the name of somebody they wanted to put on the spot & bashed everyone possible? What are the odds of someone getting fed up & looking up the name only to go after the wrong guy? I don't think phone numbers or addresses are a good idea, like editorials it might be ok for the blog boss, verifications purposes.
You sound like the kind of guy that would be easy to work with, keep it interesting. I have seen those at work situtations get carried away though. With all the sexual harrassment & stuff a guy just has to be aware. In person confrontations can lead to intense situations that end up going too far. A friend of mine was really uptight one time & left a nasty note on my truck. I never though twice about it but when personal got wind of it he was almost fired from a job he worked at for twenty years. I think the only reason he wasn't fired was that I sent a letter to personal explaining the entire situation. We were good friends, I took him flying at times, he'd given me Elk steak, & I wasn't threatened at all. Friends, just like everyone else have differences.
With all the school & on the job violence, management has to do what they have to do. The world is getting too small I guess, not enough room to back away, & everybody is uptight. Right now, today, people are worried about the economy & making payments. There are a lot of reasons for people to be on edge & it can carry over. No problems with me, except the obvious, same old rabble rouser I've always been. I'll turn it down now that it's becoming more clear how uptight the blog world is becoming. Way too much intelligent conversation for this old dog. Guess I better find a dumbed down blog. Maybe there's one of those books out there, blogging for dummies?
Good post
Let's all rub some dirt on it and get back in the game.
I still have you on watch for character and honesty issues.
You cannot pull the kind of backtracking and story changing and survive in any group, forum, blog or as a public trustee. It's not about a party preference, it's about Peter and those wolves nobody likes a lot.
Killing hipocrasy is my fetish, regardless of whether I can spell it or not.
Story changing?
Whatever story have I changed? Seriously, I would like to know.
I guess its good to have mystery people watching my character and honesty, though...that way I'll never know when they're around. I'll try to be good just for you.
Phone call was made, someone was intrigued.
This will be settled either way.
Why all the whining about insults?
That's what people do, attack others. People have been killing each other since day one, we just don't get along. If someone doesn't want to be insulted, quit insulting others, & get off the blog. Most times the people getting insulted start the problem, don't realize they did it or it's just a misunderstanding.
Want intelligent conversation? Go someplace where everybody is all worked up about themselves as intellectuals. I don't think this is the place. Turning this into some kind of private club? Require a masters, pay dues, & post income to join? Oh, look at my degree, no mine, I'm smarter than you are. Hope everybody wore their depends, sounds like they'll need them.
All the education in the world doesn't make people less human. There are a few serial killers with all kinds of education, might even be one on this blog. A few people even managed to become billionaires without any college.
The unibomber had a little education going on. This isn't an IQ contest is it?
Got a professor & a couple state senators on board & all the brains spilled out onto the blog. Looking & talking down on the common, working class man must give a warm & fuzzy to those with so much education they have to show it off. No insults if it's done in an educated way? Everybody wonders why they get no respect, they give none. We're not getting paid to post so what difference should the name make?