A politician of few words, House Speaker Lawerence Denney used a mere 70 of 'em to pick a silly fight with the news media.
Here's what he said — word for word — in a March 7 letter to the Spokane Spokesman-Review's Betsy Russell, head of the Statehouse press corps.
"Today we had media people on the Floor of the House during the Pledge of Allegiance. It was noted by several members of the Body and myself that they did not verbally participate in the Pledge.
"Please inform members of the press that if they choose not to participate in the Pledge they have ample time following the Pledge and before the 11th order to join us on the Floor."
If it was a kerfuffle Denney wanted, it's a kerfuffle Denney got.
Blogosphere reactions were predictable.
Freelance journalist Nathaniel Hoffman, referring to himself in the third person at his PaleoMedia.org blog, offered this retort: "PaleoMedia rarely goes on the floor of either the House of Senate, but will continue to say the Pledge any way we damn well please."
Republican blogger Adam Graham took Denney's side. "It’s not a matter of a power trip as some have alleged. It’s a matter of simply requesting common courtesy and respect for the House."
No, not exactly. In a Statehouse without strangers — lawmakers, reporters, lobbyists and staff pretty much know everybody on sight — Denney could have easily pulled aside the offending (and unnamed) reporters. But that wasn't quite kerfuffly enough, I suppose. Better to paint every reporter with the brush of subversion.
When I'm at an official function — a legislative session, a City Council meeting, a luncheon or banquet — I participate in the pledge. When there's an invocation, I quietly pray. I consider both a matter between me and my country, me and my god. I'm not sure who elected the politicians to judge the fervor of someone else's pledge to the flag.
Denney has never struck me as a bad guy, so I'll make him this offer. Through the remaining days of this so-far uninspiring session, I'll keep critiquing the Legislature on the issues. The speaker, and his 104 colleagues, have every right to judge every word I say — including the 387 in this post.
What do you say we keep the pledge out of it, OK?
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Solidarity here
Thanks, Kevin; yep: "With All Due Respect, MYOB, Mr. Speaker" http://www.newwest.net/city/article/harebrained_absurdities_at_the_idaho_legislature/C108/L108/
Denney's antics
Uhm, isn't the statehouse a public building? There is not a law that one must say the Pledge or leave the Statehouse. Denney may not be a "bad guy", but he of the typical Idaho Republican legislator in that he deals more in hystrionics than actual sound legistlation.
Denney needs to learn that loudly vocalizing the pledge
Equates to a baboon beating his chest. Nothing patriotic about it. Just self-serving theatrics.
A Baboon?
You mean Bieter was in attendance? Were any of his chimps with him??
Betsy
is either the head of the Idaho press corps association or on its board so whether she did or did not participate in the pledge (knowing her she did not) she would be the one to bring the complaint to.
I think if you want to be on the floor, you should participate. If you cannot and you are media, then you ought to explain your civil disobedience in your news outlet or just not be on the floor during the pledge.
It is quite immature, too young to be 60's hippies trying to live the life. Their readers should know their true feelings because obviously that affects what and how they write.
The Pledge is not mandatory, it's like if you visit another...
congregation. You may not believe in everything or be comfortable. You are not expected to do everything, just respectfully observe it. You need not pray aloud. You were invited because they wanted to show you how they demonstrate their belief. You came because of your faith in those friends. That's how interfaith understanding is supposed to work and maybe everybody learns and grows.
The men and women that built this country knew that pledges are okay as an affirmation but not as a proof of loyalty. It wasn't a law, it was a POEM written in the late 19th century!!!
Now will all the queer phony patriots stop vomiting?
Place used athletic stockingwear in oral cavity, note aroma, K?
I pledge malfeasance to the hall monitor of Spud.
One whiner rides roughshod, indefensable, underloved.
You Otter be careful in a government building! They're all wet and you might drown!
Get a grip, Kevin...you guys empower these thugs
with your pantywaist "journalistic analysis" of their actions. It's like the weatherman character Bill Murray played in the movie Groundhog Day, "they're hicks, Rita". (in the real world hicks don't get to run entire states)
A Bill Murray movie is no more reality than Byl Carrico.
They ARE hicks, however.
What?????
goptruth--Not saying the pledge is now "civil disobedience"? I spent 4 years in the service, so don't think I can be criticized for a lack of concern or respect for my country. I don't sing the anthem. I don't say the pledge. I don't pray during "moments of silence." All for reasons of my own. But it surely doesn't qualify as civil disobedience. Disobey what? Some politician who thinks he has the market cornered on patriotism and propriety? Further.. I thought from all the whining about the tight quarters that the press would have little or no access to the floor...and that the session would end in record time.
"Offending reporters"?
Sorry Kevin, despite all the fine points you make in your very good blog entry, I have to call you on this. The reporters are there to cover the news, not necessarily to participate in the ceremonial aspects of legislative meetings, and if they don't want to participate in the pledge because they think it's a distraction to the work they are there to do, or because they have personal or religious reasons for abstaining, that is their business. True, they could arrive after the pledge, but in coming late, they would cause just as much, if not more, of a distraction to members of the legislature, who should be intently pledging their allegience anyway, and not staring at and judging other people. No member of the legislature, Speaker or not, has the right to pull a member of the free press in a free country aside to tell them what to do, unless that reporter is acting in a truly inappropriate of distracting manner, in which case it is a matter for the Sargeant-at-Arms or security anyway.
Vote Deney out!
We don't need control freaks who fail by handing out tax cuts & incentives to contributors. We the People need representation! I guess someone has to spell it out. Handing out tax cuts to contributors who don't need tax cuts, {proven by the fact they have $ to give in contibutions,} while raising taxes on individuals is not representation of the people, for the people, & defineatly for the people.
Is a $9 trillion debt, going up at over a million dollars a minute proof enough? Is an infrastructure in need of $2 trillion while Otter would raise vehicle registration by 600% any indication? Is a unaffordable health care system for 45 million Americans, due in large part to illegal immigration promoted by our government as a favor to contributors for cheap labor? Is free trade while putting Americans out of work?
After all the years our government has been failing through free trade, tax cuts & incentives, promoting illegal immigration, in return as favors to contributors, I would think the people would catch on & kick the deadbeats out. The state of this nation reflects the leadership.
How long do these clowns think America can remain solvent when the American people as individuals who pay for everything & go to war are going broke one at a time through the misrepresentation & mismanagement we elect? The American people have nobody to blame but ourselves for being taken in this scam. Sending family to war based on lies while our representatives & corporate contributors make $? If any of these contriubutors & representatives gave a d-mn abut America they'd realize their greed is doing a lot more damage then terrorist ever could & terroist are playing on that greed to defeat US.
Pledge of Allegiance? Who does Denny or the rest of these deadbeats think they're fooling? Doesn't Denny have something more important to do? Is it any wonder terrorist are kicking our b-tt? They know how to manipulate the government that manipulates US so we pay for everything tenfold while our representatives & corporate unAmerica don't care as long as they make their $!
Go to Iraq, no don't go, no stay, no let's go home, we better stay, give billions to Pakistan, Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, & every other poor nation in the world & send our military to police them while spending billions more. It would have been cheaper to hand Iraq over to Iran, they'll end up with it in the end after we spent the $. What will oil cost then?
Oil would be a bargain at $100 a barrel if we weren't spending billions to blow these countries up, then rebuild them, & watch some other country reap the spoils. How much oil & fuel would we not be using if we weren't in Iraq? This war is a self addicting habit. Like Meth, the more we use the more we need.
If we want to get away from dependence on oil, why spend billions on military operations using billions of gallons of fuel? Why do we lease rights to oil companies at bargain prices while they make billions of $ selling fuel back to US for military as well as everyday use at $4 a gallon? The price of everything we use, eat, breath is going up due to the misrepresentation we pay to cut our throat & profit while they destroy America. Full disclosure!
They bail out the banks with taxpayer $ but won't put a cap on oil for over the road trucks while thousands of independent truckers go broke & the price of everything we use goes up? The news reports the need for 100,000 truck drivers while thousands go out of business everyday due to high fuel costs driving the cost of everything up. Who is running this country? An oil man? The same representation that started a war which is driving the price of oil up while using billions of gallons & making US more dependent on oil while spending billions & breaking the US? We're worried about the pledge of allegiance?
Did any of our representatives give any though to what was going to happen in Iraq & here in America before they started this war, hand out tax cuts, raise taes on idividuals? The US government, our representation is running this country so backwards it has to be on purpose. Nobody would or could run America into the dirt this way unless it was deliberate! Bush claimed before he started this war that it would only cost $2 billion, the war president then stood on the flight deck & proclaimed the major fighting was over. How wrong or just plain dumb is this guy & why would we have kept him for so long while failing so miserably?
A pro baseball or football team would have kicked the manager/coach out after a failing season & we keep a guy who kills thousands of people & breaks the entire nation? The same goes for every representative we have, including Denny! Who does this clown think he is?
Who are they going to rip off when the working class are broke? Is that why we're in Iraq? Their greed is so great they can't get enough out of US taxpayers so they attack other nations at our expense making it all ten times as bad. Terrorist aren't near the threat our misrepresentation is. People didn't want terrorist here in America so they went along with Bush's war in Iraq? Hate to break it to them but the terrorist are on your payroll in DC, in every state, county, & city. They cut your throat while telling you what a great job they're doing for you. St least bin Laden is up front, telling Us he'll kill US.
I can hear the goat lovin cave dweller, bin Laden laughing from here. I'd be willing to bet bin Laden says the pledge of allegiance & thanks God every morning for our representatives, his best weapon.
It might come as a surprise to Denny but there a lot of people who never say the pledge, making sacrifices everyday for this nation while he & the rest of our misrepresentatives are whining about the pledge & failing as a representative, counting his $ no doubt. Idiot!
don't hold back
--smiling--
You need to express your opinion. Don't hold back. It's not healthy.
That's right, I get my kicks pointing out the obvious.
If the current state of this country doesn't speak volumes about doing or saying nothing, I guess the American people could be hit by a bus before they realize what's going on.
Keep smiling on your way to the poor house as you pass your representatives going the other direction, to the bank.
How about democracy? Why wouldn't any other country jump at the opportunity? We'll start a war, bomb them back to the stone age, kill half their relatives, & rebuild. After ten or twenty years they'll have more of our jobs & military to protect them, not US, & those of US who haven't gone broke will pay for it all on half the money we used to make. Then they'll sell US oil at $120 or $150 a barrel. Too bad Bush didn't make a lifetime deal for $50 a barrel oil before he liberated them at our expense. He's a real deal maker, a war president.
If the American people were smart they'd put together a list of what WE the People want & need & hand it over to our representatives. Set a date & every taxpayer with the stones, would take that day off if our representatives didn't do as We the People suggest. I know, that would only make things worse, boo hoo. Don't thinks it's going to get better any time soon, do you? That's the thing about band aid fixes like our representatives promote, you have to keep coming back to fix them again, & again & pay several times over. Social Security, health care, Medicare, or Medicaid, sound familiar?
If the trucking industry were smart they would shut down today & now move until Bush, Congress, & the Senate put a cap on fuel prices. The price everything we buy is dictated by the price of fuel. If a trucker is paying $4 a gallon today, $4.25 tomorrow, & $5 next year we will all be paying more for everything we buy & more sales tax on top of that. What's that going to do for a recession? Keep smiling, don't hold back, it's not healthy.
It's time for the American people to step up & make some demands. With the technology we have you don't have to pick up a gun, fire at anyone or be fired upon, just stand together.
www.nextrevolution.net A lobby for the people.
To those who suggest I go to some third world country or China if I don't like it here. Why? The US government can tap my phone, torture me with waterboarding, kick down my door, rape my dog, & shoot my wife, anytime they want. We have everything China has, except all the jobs our representatives gave away through NAFTA. America is an executive privilege away from a dictatorship, Bush has proven that.
Pointing out the obvious...
We the people did make a list of what we wanted, elected our representatives in a landslide to get the list accomplished - as we do in a republic, (not a democracy) and then we the people decided we didn't want the list enacted because it began to affect us. The list was the Contract With America, and we turned as an electorate and unelected the very people we sent to Congress to do our bidding. Sometimes the obvious doesn't remain so.
Maybe we need to make up our minds as to what we
are, a republic or a democracy. If we're a republic why are we promting democracy in Iraq with war? Republicans were the party that came up with the Contract with America weren't they? A guess a shell game isn't meant to be obvious, that's how slight of hand works. Your tax $, now you see it, now you don't.
We made up our minds...
We pledge our allegience "...and to the Republic for which it stands..." We certainly use democratic principles in our representative Republic, but that doesn't make us a true Democracy. Remember, Franklin said a "Democracy is a mobocracy."
For good or bad we are promoting the "concept" of democracy in Iraq, so that the people may choose their type of government.
It was the Republicans who wrote the Contract with America, and then badly managed it. But I also think the people were the shell game - they wanted everything in the Contract so long as it didn't affect them....
Good luck in telling the rest of the US taxpayers.
I don't think everybody knows it's just a concept, in Iraq or America. Better send a letter to Bush, Congress, & the Senate too. If everybody knew the truth maybe they would do it all differently, save lives, time, & money. We might want to iron out that part about America being a republic before the next democratic election.
I wasn't all about the Contract with America, which they mismanaged, didn't vote for any of them, didn't believe Bush was right in his war, & still don't. I'm not republican or democrat, I'm an American stuck with the results of elections through democracy. That's the way America is, can't do much except point out the failure.
America used to have a battle cry, "Give me liberty or give me death." Now it's, "there's nothing you can do." That's what the American people say about government failing these days. We should change it to, "there's nothing we will do." If the American people have given up & won't do anything, that fits. Doesn't matter if it's a republic or democracy. Wonder what we'll call it when there's a different flag & we're all broke? Amuslica, Amexico, Canamerica, Amexiconada, or just poor house for the working class. Better stop building that fence, might want to head south looking for work.
One legislator making a big deal about the pledge is rediculous when the rest of our representatives are running America into the dirt through misrepresentation, mismanagement, & campaign finance. The America people are not being represented, they're voting, paying for it all, & dying in a war based on lies, but they're not being represented. "There's nothing they will do" so it will continue.
No, I didn't know Franklin said democracy is a mobocracy. Did you make that up? I've often said our government has taken over where they pushed the mob out. The profit from alcohol sales is a good example. Over 17.000 Americans killed in alcohol related auto accidents every year & it's all good, $ to be made. Then we start a war when terrorist kill 3,000 Americans in one shot & send 4,000 more to death in war based on lies. Franklin was smart guy, treasonous I suppose, but otherwise a likable/honest sort of guy.
The "next democratic election"
We have those for most of our local and state races, but of course not for president, or Mr. Gore would have won. We choose our electors and they select the president for us through the Electoral College - which is how Mr. Bush won his first term.
If I recall my 7th grade civics class correctly Article IV of the U.S. Constitution states (Section 4) "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..."
Of course we operate generally under democratic principles and processes, but the fickle will of the people is subordinated to the more consistent judgment of their (our) chosen representatives for most issues of governing our states and nation.
I guess that clears it up.
Democracy, a republic, or any other form of government just might work, if it were run as designed or by the original concept. Peope are the failure in life, I guess that's why they saywe're only human.
Just how rediculous is it that the election for the highest office in the land is the one decided by other than the people who take the time to vote? Considering the chads & other problems that evidently make no difference due to the electoral college, why bother? How true are the numbers?
Doesn't seem to matter what we're taught in school, life will dictate the way things really are, just as you pointed out. Wonder where we'd be if Gore would have won? Recession, war, or a country run by terrorists? The fear mongers would suggest a country run by terrorist, as if that would be much worse than the situation we are now in.
Time will tell?
If you didn't try to think so hard, it might become apparent.
I'm not here to help you develop any nihilistic beliefs. That's up to you.
Maybe you should think a little harder.
Who voted for Bush twice, went bankrupt, lives on welfare, & rides a bike. Move up to the 21st century, man up. Get a woman & you might become a parent. Didn't they make a movie about you? What are you afraid of? Women are great, life wouldn't be worth a darn without them. Give it a try. Sell the bike, get a car, & go on a date sometime. We won't miss you're small town wisdumb.
You're still mad because I kicked you around & you want to start something so you can get me kicked off this blog. Are those guidelines there because you cried, "he's picking on me." You remind me of the kid who ran sqealing to the teacher & got beat up after school all the time. Is your bike pink?
The same welfare you'll scream and whine about in a couple yrs.
You middle aged disenfranchised bozos are monotonous and need to lay off the jingo bells.
I recall the way YOU came in here, screaming about some road rage garbage that would've netted you thug jewelry, leaded NO crystal in another place and same time.
Mind checking your knitted Coors can hat at the door? You paranoid what-the-heil.
Grow up. Nobody is going to find you and cause mayhem. At least you won't get a ticket here. You are still a dullard but stop blaming me for it.
Relax & go get some help
or a refill on the meds. Why do you always start this stuff then blow up when somebody puts you in your place? 40 years old, don't own a car or home, living on welfare, & riding a bike around while pretending to know all & be all, doesn't instill much confidence. Take your own advice & grow up. Go back & read what you just posted, who is screaming & paranoid?
Quit posting junk on every thread just to get attention, with your one line jibberish. Middle aged, disenfranchised bozos? You evidently have a list & it must start at an age just beyond your own. You'd do better to recall what you have done & quit badgering others.
Get over the fact that I kicked you around & realize it happened because you start this stuff for no good reason. I must have hit on something. Was it sqealing to the teacher, getting beat up, the pink bike, or not being able to make it in life without welfare? Those are things you could give advice about & be taken seriously. See, you could actually contribute through your life's experiences if you just focused. Sit down, relax, & it'll be OK.
You're my twin brother, part 23.
I have plenty of medication, taken properly, same old crap response, you can do much better and thank you for failing again.
Later.
We're just not using our best bombs. Any reason?
Better bombing through Science!
We guarantee 100% P------ off, or your money back!
Just a reminder
geez KR,
if Denney is simply offering a friendly reminder to the press corp to be respectful during the pledge, is it necessary to baste him for it?
If he's a turkey, baste him. If he's a table, Pledge to dust him
I didn't read anything about
the press being "disrespectful" during the pledge. Just that some members chose not to participate. I maintain a respectful silence, though I do not care to participate.
I haven't participated in what I consider a meaningless public display /rote recital for decades.
What are you gonna do about it? Call me unpatriotic? UnAmerican? A librul? You'd be wrong on 2 counts.
Another poster nailed it: "Histrionics".
Good postings Greyghost
This comment section benefits from your explanations.
Your compositions are good; just hold back from engaging in the rantings of others that stray from the topics.
Intelligent views are refreshing.
I also wish to say "Thanks" to Kevin Richert for giving us a view from within the actual State proceedings.
The Denney Diplomacy Act is another Idaho GOP failure.
My brother is fine. True.
If he wants to come to Ontario and monitor my meds, whatever. Nobody will get any farther with the ignorant comments about this or that and my meds. You're sitting in front of a large CRT ruining your eyesight too and I offer you time to prove you aren't mentally challenged doing so. Most of the posts here are about killing sex criminals (macho posturing although we all know that and aren't in favor of those people), a personal meet and greet session, and a few cliched responses you know will show up for certain topics anyway.
Why aren't you mad at YOURSELVES if I run rings around that? Who do I care? I DON'T. Seen all that for nine years on Usenet newsgroups, this is tame. Australians could kick all of us around, drunk.
Muy crapola any way.
PS We think my brother tends to rant and make a universe of his own. Nice trolling.
Roundvalley hit it on the head,
I should avoid the rant & getting after you, I shouldn't/haven't until recently when you wrote something neg. in response to my posts. I read the paper & like today's it is clear our government, our paid representatives aren't getting the job done. To point it out & have someone who is losing $ through that same mismanagement, suggest negative on the part of someone not profitting from the mismanagement, is degrading to all of US. This is America so why is it wrong to point out government taking US & why do people enjoy being taken?
Today's paper, from the cost of fuel driving up all other costs, out of control health care costs suggesting people take cheap treatment & short life that goes along rather than break the family, lending taxpayer $ to the banking industry responsible for preditory lending. All these campaign contributors, no different than the alcohol industry which hasn't had a tax increase in years while we pay $20k a year to house prisoners, 85% of who have substance abuse problems. We need more money, pay more taxes for treatment & prisons? Let alcohol pay for the abuse it creates. I drink & as long as I know where tax $ from alcohol goes, just like fuel tax to roads, why would I care? It's up to me how much I spend. Editorials, one after another, day in & out by people who are fed up with government mismanagement & misrepresentation.
The trucking industry needs to turn off the switch & the people need to mark a date on the calendar. Don't go to work or spend any money that day. Write & call your representatives! July 2nd would be a good date, another independence day but never allow it to become a paid government holiday! Plenty of lead time to let government sweat the loss of income taxes & fuel taxes by truckers. It may never have to happen, as long as we put together some demands & get them.
Would it do any good? We need to get the clowns we elect, pay, provide health care & retirement which WE the People lose more of everyday, to do the job we elect them to do. Even individuals are being conned into contributing to campaigns, people are contributing in the names of their 8 year old kids who don't even know what politics are. What does it say about a politician who takes $ from an 8 year old?
Our government hands over cheap leases to oil companies, they profit in billions, charge US $3.whatever for gas, $4 a gallon for diesel which drives up the cost of everything else. We don't have $ for roads? Our self proclaimed war president starts a war for reasons we may never know, uses billons of gallons of fuel costing US billions while keeping the addiction to fuel alive & well while profitting as an oil man? Environmentally & morally bankrupt, Bush is all about war, killing, burning fuel, polluting, & the environment is suffering from the lowest of the food chain to Bush himself but the greed continues to drive the beast. What species will be gone tommorrow? Man?
I forget what I was watching the other night, Sixty Minutes maybe. Catchable Salmon off our Pacific coast will only be 35,000, once 1.5 million. From damns, developments, pollution, to not enough water, a perpetual man made list killing an industry, fish that produced billions of $?
How much money, power, or whatever it is, do these people need? We couldn't run this country into the dirt any faster or more efficiently than our representatives are unless it was deliberate? Global warming? I don't know. Is the air we breath worth protecting? Not if our representatives & their contributors have anything to say or do about it. We pay for drinking water, something I never though I would buy twenty years ago. I wonder what a bottle of air will cost after being delivered on a truck that gets 5 MPG costing $5, 6, or 7 a gallon. Where they are they going to get that air?
"Let alcohol pay for the abuse it creates."
I suppose we should let automobile taxes pay the speeding fines the cars create. Let the candy companies pay for the obesity they create. My goodness, where is personal responsibility?
Alcohol does not create abuse. Nor do I. Why should I pay an extra tax when I purchase a legal product that I use carefully, to pay for treatment for those who use it recklessly?
The price of gas? Hmmmm, the cost of oil has gone up 300%, and our oil companies have been able to hold the increase of the cost at the pump to under thirty percent. That is the benefit of cheap oil leases, and the economic success of oil company profits working for us.
You can break it down a million different ways.
Acoholism is a disease & impairs judgement. After the first drink judgement is suspect. Some people quit after one or two but how many drink more? It's not the same for everyone or anyone. Good for you if you're being responsible, doesn't mean you or someone you love won't get run over by a drunk. We have prisons full of people who don't take responsility, 85% of inmates are in for alcohol & drug related offenses. Alcohol does create abuse, through peer pressure, advertising, sports, & a thousand other anvenues. Kids don't have all that personal responsibilty figured out & develope a habit. How many parents are responsible & teach kids to be? If we were all personally responsible I guess we wouldn't need police, courts, laws, prisons, or even churches.
If you have to ask why you should pay an extra tax when you buy something legal as long as you use it carefully you're fooling yourself. How many people don't use it carefully & why are there so many problems surrounding it? Those numbers tell the story, not your story, the story.
Cars don't speed unless the driver in control does so. It's not the car's fault. Doesn't matter the difference of make or model so much as it does the driver behind the wheel. The human factor. Oil companies would make ten times as much if they thought it wouldn't create an uprising. The trucking industry is about to step up with somekind of demonstration, might not amount to much but they'll have to say somethimg soon. Oil companies take what they can while they can. How is it the US government bails out the banking industry with tax $ & lets the taxpayer go broke one at a time? Are we all irresponsible or is there a little more to it? $$$$$ dictates!
Alcohol is promoted by business making billions of $ & contributing to our representatives who are all about anything a lobbyist hangs out in front of them. Larry Craig is using campaign contributions for personal legal fees. With all that money why wouldn't we suggest it pay for the problems instead of people who don't drink at all? Fast food & candy will one day pay for obesity, just like bottled water. When they figure out how to make money on the idea it'll happen. It's already on the label, trans fat, yada, yada.
Who was it wrote something about a mobocracy? The mob was making the money & when it comes to money, who is it that can't let it go by without a tax? How many people can't quit smoking? Government went after that & it was legal.
Why does everybody compare guns & whatever comes up to cars. Cars are a necessary means of transportation, is alcohol? Sure a lot of people drinking & driving. There was an article in the paper today about some guy arrested for the fourth DUI in the last ten years. I know a guy in Denver who has had five DUI's & only spent four months is county lockup with work release. He got out & has a job working in a liquor store. I don't think he's ever blown under a .25 & .3 isn't out of the norm. His parents were alcoholics, his brothers & sister are, he drinks everyday & still passes a UA test everyday! He is just like the rest of us, human. Where's the personal responsibility? Life is funny, happy as a lark, walk out the front door & get run over. Who is responsible?
Do the American people or any other people care? If we care so much & are so responsible, how is it we're killing so many people with our weapons of minor destruction over weapons of mass distruction? The American people don't care about the Iraq people. The American people don't care about anything but themselves & money. People as individuals are just a smaller version of corporate unAmerica & government, greedy.
Hate to say it mtomlin but you're one of a dying breed. Being responsbile is on the way out. How many of our representatives are being responsible. The Gov. of NY? Cunningham from CA.? Mayor Coles? Noble? Clinton? The list never ends. Is Bush responsible? Maybe he's like a car or alcohol, legal, the President, & not to blame.
Better be careful, they'll expect a little more than you can give. Maybe you're just not human. I think we need to raise a statue in honor of you. Just don't slip up.
Drunks and alcoholics
Those are two very different groups.
That alcohol is a "disease" is one social theory. It is curious that it seldom strikes non-drinkers...
I think many American people care, as do many of us here in the U.S. But I think it unfair to blame Canadians of not caring "about anything but themselves and money." America is a big place and the U.S. but one country in it.
A number of our "leaders" have fallen prey to the elixir of power, but it is gratifying that most have not and serve us in good faith.
It also infrequently strikes those
who only have an occasional drink.
What's the trigger point? One glass of wine at Christmas? A highball after work every day?
To imply that a diagnosis of alcoholism as a disease state is a social theory is to ignore the facts which increasingly point to a genetic component to some forms of alcoholism. The response of neuro-receptors to alcohol differs in individuals. The only sure way to prevent alcoholism is to never take a drink. Does this mean we should go back to Prohibition? Or should we recognize the diagnosis and continue to research ways to combat the disease, since we all know how Prohibition worked last time?
Diagnosing alcoholism
There is no reliable diagnosis for alcoholism in non-drinkers. The "diagnosis" for alcoholism is determined based upon social actions such as drinking - which is a choice. Thus the diagnosis becomes a social theory much as ADD/ADHD. You merely diagnose the symptoms, and you treat the symptons, but you cannot diagnose the disease. This is very different from say...Diabetes - where we can diagnose the disease itself.
If alcoholism is a disease, then we cannot prosecute people who break the law under the influence of the disease, anymore than we can any disease. Being drunk could become the perfect defense.
If alcoholism is a disease, then those afflicted with it must have their drivers license cancelled along with other critical licenses such as nursing.
However, if the "disease" can be defeated by simply not drinking....then it actually is not a disease and we are right back where we began.
Oh good, that WASN'T you yesterday!
Throwing Mickey D's at some guy.
I don't play favorites...
If I'm not thrilled by something written it will stabd to be criticized if I feel that way. You also have you moments.
Expext nothing less.
PS You take teasing as badly as I do :-p
Do It. The prospect of carnage or utter ignorance fascinates me.
Personal responsibility is great but
a thing of the past. Painting a pretty picture on rotten canvas is like building a house or a country like the US, {not Canada} on a poor foundation. Expecting people of this society to take responsibility is beating a dead horse.
Everything around US is a lie. The courts, plea bargains, paying the fine with no admission of guilt, parents telling their kids to never admit an accident was their fault, lawyers & always the not guilty plea. You are punished for stepping up to personal responsibility so society has programed US to lie. If Canada is the land of a perfect world, where do I get a ticket, what is the price?
Is alcoholism a disease? Anybody who has been around alcohol or seen the results of alcohol abuse knows the answer to that. The police aren't called to the same house or bars, more times than not involving the same people, time & time again for no reason. No liver damage in this country. I don't know where Canada came in, I might have inadvertantly but never meant to bring them into it. When I say America I mean the US & most people know that. Why bring Canada into it? I think it was all about making alcohol pay for the problems it creates. If alcohol isn't a disease in Canada or there are no alcoholics in Canada, great, let's get on board. Do Canadians care? Judging from the news, people all over the world all have some things in common, being human.
America is a big place but our laws & I would have to imagine most of what is on this blog is about US, not all the Americas. If everything posted with America in it has to include Canada & the rest of the Americas let's have it in the side bar. Read what you want into what I or anyone else writes while including America but be careful not to fall off the personal responsibility pedistal.
I don't understand how drunks & alcoholics are so completely different. To read this, then alcoholism as one social theory, & then it's curious that alcohol seldom strikes non drinkers? I bet you'd have a hard time telling the parents of a kid killed by a drunk driver, that alcohol seldom struck her son who never had a drink in life. Once is all it took.
The truth about the few leaders who have fallen prey to the elixir of power & drunk drivers who have been caught is that they are ones that were caught. What is the percentage or number who don't get caught? You couldn't put enough police on duty, enough courts, judges, lawyers, or build enough jails for all the ones who commit the crimes but never get caught. Prison is a rotation, a club gaining membership
everyday. Taxes are the membership fees whether you join the club or not.
Personal responsibilty, in 2008, that's a hoot in any land. All I suggest is that alcohol, which some are profitting from to the tune of billions of dollars, than contribute millions to US representation which promotes it, & prison, pay the way for some of the problems related to it. It dosen't matter what country, nationality, color, flag, or how personally responsible someone is, another .10 or .25 cents on top of a $5 beer or shot of whiskey isn't going to make any difference unless you drink a million of whatever. Idaho Gov. Otter was trying to raise vehicle registration 600%, what percentage of $5 is .10 or .25 cents?
Price obviously was never a concern if $5 a beer is the case & chances are you drove drunk somewhere in the mix. Get it, case, in the mix. I'm sure most drunks or alcoholics of what ever country, argue about paying more, it'll cost them a drink somewhere down the road.
I drink so I guess I'm taking personal responsibilty in the willingness to pay a little more to help pay for prisons or detox. How about you?
Most people get an entire six pack for under $5 and 1-2 cans...
at a bar easily. I knew a bar where they often gave me free diet pop because they said it cost them pennies.
You buy beer at Albertstuns? I get physically queasy trying to shop there.